Our Preseason No. 1 HS Team

[glenn]

Mindi Rice takes a look at the stars who power St. Mary's of Stockton, Calif.:

http://sports.espn.go.com/ncaa/recruiting/basketball/womens/news/story?id=3684278

[BrooklynSaints]

Mindi Rice takes a look at the stars who power St. Mary's of Stockton, Calif.:

http://sports.espn.go.com/ncaa/recruiting/basketball/womens/news/story?id=3684278

Smith is not on St. Mikes. Last year was her Senior year.
Now I see why you rated St. Mikes so high. if they had Smith they would be very strong. They are still very good though.

[themamba]

I think I would have them as high as well were she to play.

[glenn]

Smith is not on St. Mikes. Last year was her Senior year.
Now I see why you rated St. Mikes so high. if they had Smith they would be very strong. They are still very good though.

Are you talking about Shenneika Smith? She is indeed on the team. I went to their practice, as well as St. Mike's itself, where I saw none other than ... Shenneika Smith, books in hand.

[glenn]

I think I would have them as high as well were she to play.

See above.

[knowshoops]

EDITOR'S NOTE: This line of discussion is not necessary or enlightening.

[themamba]

See above.

Thanks, I still learn something new everyday.

[knowshoops]

ok i see your point.:)

[Thor1]

Glenn, I may be biased as their coach but your total disregard and lack of consideration for St. John the Baptist is baffling. A pre season poll usually does factor in some past accomplishment in the previous high school year. Do you base your rankings more on AAU or all-star games than you do the actual high school season? It seems that this is the case. After 5 consecutive long island championships, 2 class AA back to back state championships and 6 D1 and 2 D2 players sent out in the last five years you would think you would get at least a little notice. St. Michael's has had some great teams and players over the years but have not won what SJB has won. SJB beat Michael's by 14 in the state semi's last year. And I don't claim to know but it was pretty common knowledge that Smith used up her eligibility last year. But based on potential Mikes is the #3 Team in the country. University ranked 11th in the country at the time by USA Today was also beaten by St. Johns last year. Your #12 HD Woodson was also beaten by SJB last year. Maybe one day, SJB can be ranked as high as #8 based on NAME alone. BTW we ended CTK's run of 18 consecutive state titles to get our 1St state championship 2 years ago when they were led by lorin Dixon. If having you at one of our practices is a pre requisite to receiving some ranking consideration then by all means come out and visit us in little ole West Islip. I'll buy you a plate of raviollis

[glenn]

Glenn, I may be biased as their coach but your total disregard and lack of consideration for St. John the Baptist is baffling. A pre season poll usually does factor in some past accomplishment in the previous high school year. Do you base your rankings more on AAU or all-star games than you do the actual high school season? It seems that this is the case. After 5 consecutive long island championships, 2 class AA back to back state championships and 6 D1 and 2 D2 players sent out in the last five years you would think you would get at least a little notice. St. Michael's has had some great teams and players over the years but have not won what SJB has won. SJB beat Michael's by 14 in the state semi's last year. And I don't claim to know but it was pretty common knowledge that Smith used up her eligibility last year. But based on potential Mikes is the #3 Team in the country. University ranked 11th in the country at the time by USA Today was also beaten by St. Johns last year. Your #12 HD Woodson was also beaten by SJB last year. Maybe one day, SJB can be ranked as high as #8 based on NAME alone. BTW we ended CTK's run of 18 consecutive state titles to get our 1St state championship 2 years ago when they were led by lorin Dixon. If having you at one of our practices is a pre requisite to receiving some ranking consideration then by all means come out and visit us in little ole West Islip. I'll buy you a plate of raviollis

You had a great season. And yes you cannot be anything but biased.

[Thor1]

Glenn, are you saying that a journalist such as yourself is ALWAYS above bias. You would think that teams that work hard and prove themselves over a previous season would get more consideration than teams that look good on paper or teams that have some legacy in the minds of reporters but in reality haven't done much lately. Its true as the season plays out things will change but in a pre-season poll, most polls due factor in not only who is returning but more importantly where did that team finish last year. You're a champion til somebody beats you I think. CTK which brings back basically the same team they had last year minus their starting point guard and couldn't get even get out of their section getting beat and being dispatched to the lower A state bracket magically appears as the #8 Team in the country. On the face of things it looks contrived or political but then again you may know things that us biased coaches don't know. namely that in things like this half the battle and sometimes more is who you know.

[themamba]

Things will shake out within the first month as it has the last few years in the TOC. This tournament could be renamed TIC-TOC with some of these explosive teams and dynamite young players. The first session features 15 of FAB RISE top 50 teams and as many as 60 of the top 200 players in their class. FAB RISE (Full Court last year) again has a concentration of Cali teams up top with 3 of the top 5 teams in the land. Two of these powerhouses are featured in session 1 with the #1 ST. MARY'S RAMS and the #5 POLY JACKRABBITS able to prove their merit against some of the top teams such as #8 CTK, # 11 O'HARA, #2 BOLINGBROOK, #15 DALLAS-LINCOLN, #6 REGIS and #17 BISHOP MCGUINESS. Compound that with a straight ironically, #21 CARROLL, #22 WESLEYAN, #23 HIGHLANDS RANCH and #24 CHAMINADE-JULIENNE and you got half of the RISE top 24 teams in the country. #26 BREA, #30 RIVERDALE BAPTIST and #50 GORMAN round out the 15 committed teams in the showcase.

Having done rankings myself, I know there is no exact science to follow or any absolute un-bias one could have (it's in our dna) to separate any of the top 50, 100 or 200 teams among the 17,000 teams that compete every year. Not to mention the 450,000+ players that play. It's your (my) credibility on the line for those to choose to do so. I think most do it because they have a passion for the game and an ego strong enough to be able to defend their choices. It all comes out in the wash. The first cycle (TOC), one of probably four loads, is arguably the most important with as many top quality teams congregated together. For the most part, especially dealing with teens, there is very little or zero difference between say #13 and #39 in the country. It's just one's or a staffs opinion. Having said that, anyones top 10 will be heavily scrutinized as will anybodys top 50 or 75 if you leave a fans (fanatics), coaches or players team out.

I will say having done my rankings that for the most part I have similiar views as RISE as to who's the top 50 teams in the country. I have 7 of the 15 participating in the TOC within 15 spots and 13 of the 15 within 30. I think most knowledgable fans that follow the game nationally generally can agree on the top programs. What comes into play aside from how a teens day is going is - incoming transfers, eligibility and young guns matriculating to high school. And thats why we play the games. And with the competitiveness these girls show, they know like Herm, they PLAY TO WIN THE GAME. Good luck.

[glenn]

Glenn, are you saying that a journalist such as yourself is ALWAYS above bias. You would think that teams that work hard and prove themselves over a previous season would get more consideration than teams that look good on paper or teams that have some legacy in the minds of reporters but in reality haven't done much lately. Its true as the season plays out things will change but in a pre-season poll, most polls due factor in not only who is returning but more importantly where did that team finish last year. You're a champion til somebody beats you I think. CTK which brings back basically the same team they had last year minus their starting point guard and couldn't get even get out of their section getting beat and being dispatched to the lower A state bracket magically appears as the #8 Team in the country. On the face of things it looks contrived or political but then again you may know things that us biased coaches don't know. namely that in things like this half the battle and sometimes more is who you know.

I continue to find it a fascinating psychological and sociological phenomenon that adults, when they believe they or their children (or players) have been slighted, will resort to name-calling on a public message board, linked to probably the preeminent sports media company on the planet, that could be viewed by thousands around the entire country. And that part of that name calling involves charges of -- horrors! -- politics or, as the SJB coach also calls it, the game of "who you know."

I didn't know the true meaning of "haters" -- at least, down in my bones -- until I started this Web site.

To answer that last charge of "who you know" quickly, will someone please call the coach of every team in the preseason rankings and ask them if they know me well enough personally to name, say, one of my children or my wife? If any <b>one</b> of the 50 can answer correctly (without Goggling), you win a prize. As TheMamba points out, bending to politics risks sacrificing credibility. Does anyone out there know what we at ESPN HoopGurlz treasure most -- our credibility or our ability to make and maintain a national network of "friends" to whom we cater in all of our rankings?

It remains beyond me why, in these kind of situations, that people don't merely say: "We believe we have a rankable team, these are the players on our roster, these are the teams we play this season." In fact, we've had a push-pinned thread up for months on this very forum, asking for that very sort of information.

Mostly, we spent the past couple months researching an <b>entire country</b>, which anyone has to admit is pretty daunting. We didn't do this off the top of our heads or after a couple hours of consideration, which often is the case with media polls. I arguably saw more teams last season than any other individual in the country and, yes, we tapped into that some. We also evaluate players as college prospects and, if there is a bias, that's probably ours. In other words, a lot of work and data went into our rankings. We may be wrong, we may have missed schools, but at least we can say we put maximum effort into this. To demand that we also be perfect is unreasonable.

So, Thor1 (can't people just use their real names in these kind of situations?), to say we exercised "total disregard" for St. John's the Baptist is just over the line. If you are indeed the coach at SJB, you are an educator first. Is this what you really want to teach your kids -- that anytime they feel slighted, they ought to call names and make accusations? To what end? I may be wrong, but faced with this kind of situation when I coached, I'd counsel my kids to take control over the only thing they can control, which is their own performance. Play hard, play hard, win game and usually you get what you deserve.

SJB did have a great season last year and, if there is anything to criticize us about, it's not giving enough credit for that. I will say in our defense that last year only was our first foray into trying to cover high-school basketball, per se, and we didn't really have a charge because we didn't do rankings. We did it more out of curiosity. This is the first time we've ever ranked high school teams and our coverage now has a purpose. If your team has a great season this year, and we don't acknowledge it, then shame on us.

Finally, I will say this about past performance: It is a factor but we have to determine how. Most of my sportswriting experience is in covering team sports, so this I know pretty well. Teams on the high-school and college level have windows of opportunity because they have players for a finite period of time. Last year's champions lose players and last year's also-rans mature and perhaps add talent, so they all could flip-flop. Yes, there are programs that consistently attract talent so you may see them in rankings year after year.

I've already received an email from a newspaper reporter questioning our ranking St. Mary's of Stockton, Calif., ahead of Sacred Heart of San Francisco. Sacred Heart beat St. Mary's, the reporter reasoned. Yes, but that was last season. Sacred Heart lost some key players and St. Mary's had a roster full of sophomores (now juniors) returning from a one-loss season. Meanwhile, other teams ranked ahead of them -- Long Beach Poly and Murry Bergtraum, for example -- also lost key players. Further, we watched St. Mary's two best players, Chelsea Gray and Afure Jemerigbe, mature into superstars last summer and we know the Rams are playing an aggressive, national schedule. To us, this all added up to St. Mary's <b>projecting</b> as the best high school team in the country. And, yes, we are making that projection without a single game having been played. Can you imagine our ranking players without any of them having played?

If it were as easy as relying on last year's results, we very well have tried too hard. After all, we could have taken someone's final rankings from last year (since we didn't produce our own) and simply re-posted them.

[Smigel]

Thats a novel idea. A bias for talent.

[sjducky]

Most of you don't know me as well as you know (or think you know) Glenn, but if I could be bought off/bribed by personal relationships or politics, I likely wouldn't even be working in this industry right now, let alone at ESPN HoopGurlz and as part of our high school rankings team.

I know this won't end the discussion -- because I've covered high school sports (and done my own rankings at a statewide level) enough to quickly learn that someone, somewhere always feels slighted -- but there are a few things that everyone needs to remember for the next couple weeks until we get into the swing of the season and, especially, holiday tournaments:


These are only the PRESEASON rankings.
In theory, the end-of-season rankings are the most important this year. If we miss you then? You have our e-mails.
The teams that do better than we started them will rise, while the teams that do worse will, indeed, fall. That's part of the fun of rankings.
You'll be getting a new set of (100-team-deep, including regional!) rankings to argue about nearly every week. So save some breath for down the line and, please, enjoy us giving you so many opportunities for schools/programs to nitpick us about. Ranking 100-plus teams (because we have to know who will move up when others move out!) is not an easy task.

[bbhcky4]

Well said and thanks for all your time.

They are the reasons why most of us enjoy reading and being allowed to give our opinions - I think it's only the few who take it so personal and maybe just need to improve their way of presenting their own opinions.

Keep up the good work.

[Thor1]

Glenn, I thought we were engaged in some rather civil discourse and if I "crossed the line" as you say, I sincerely apologize for offending your sensibilities. I respect what you do and the daunting task you have before you but unless we have a civil dialog where we can voice our opinions and disagree on occassion there is no learning that we may acquire and I state that as an educator. I really did not see in any of my posts where I called anyone names. I only started posting here because one of my parents directed me to a question by one of your correspondents that asked or invited whether "your high school team should be ranked", I signed up and responded. YOUR WORDS: "It remains beyond me why, in these kind of situations, that people don't merely say: "We believe we have a rankable team, these are the players on our roster, these are the teams we play this season." In fact, we've had a push-pinned thread up for months on this very forum, asking for that very sort of information." We did. I guess our information did not help our cause. I agree with a lot of what you say but reserve the right to disagree on some things and as a lowly high school coach to try and promote our school and the kids who do work extremely hard and have brought great succcess and honor to SJB over the last 6 years. We were btw ranked in the RISE magazine Top 50 last year based on our taking down CTK for the State Title. We ended the season ranked 13 by USA Today based on what I've already posted from last year. I believe that pre-season rankings do as a general rule take into account the prior year with variables of course. I know you can't get everything right but I just feel that you should be rewarded for what you earn and work for. I mean no disrespect to St. Michaels or CTK who have very good basketball teams but for what they did last year they are just ranked awfully high. I actually believe that Bergtraum who only lost Leary and Parnell and brings back the core of their team with some exceptional young talent will again be the team to beat and in the last decade they are time tested and proven. They just go out and win. Going back to 2004 when we beat Bergtraum as the #1 Team in the country by USA Today I feel that we have proven over time that we have won big games year after year and deserve a little respect for that. All that being said, we may go out and not win a game this year, but if these kids are anything like past SJB Teams, they'll find a way to win. As human beings we should all not be so naieve that we feel we are impervious to bias. That is all I was trying to say. And I must say that I agree with another poster who said that too much credence is given to the overlapping of AAU and high school ball. They are both unique and distinct animals. Good Luck this season at hoopgurlz and I think I'll concentrate on getting my team ready for the season now and leave the lobbying to the professionals. Oh, you can call me Coach but if we ever share a taco you can call me what my mother calls me.

[glenn]

Glenn, I thought we were engaged in some rather civil discourse and if I "crossed the line" as you say, I sincerely apologize for offending your sensibilities. I respect what you do and the daunting task you have before you but unless we have a civil dialog where we can voice our opinions and disagree on occassion there is no learning that we may acquire and I state that as an educator. I really did not see in any of my posts where I called anyone names. I only started posting here because one of my parents directed me to a question by one of your correspondents that asked or invited whether "your high school team should be ranked", I signed up and responded. YOUR WORDS: "It remains beyond me why, in these kind of situations, that people don't merely say: "We believe we have a rankable team, these are the players on our roster, these are the teams we play this season." In fact, we've had a push-pinned thread up for months on this very forum, asking for that very sort of information." We did. I guess our information did not help our cause. I agree with a lot of what you say but reserve the right to disagree on some things and as a lowly high school coach to try and promote our school and the kids who do work extremely hard and have brought great succcess and honor to SJB over the last 6 years. We were btw ranked in the RISE magazine Top 50 last year based on our taking down CTK for the State Title. We ended the season ranked 13 by USA Today based on what I've already posted from last year. I believe that pre-season rankings do as a general rule take into account the prior year with variables of course. I know you can't get everything right but I just feel that you should be rewarded for what you earn and work for. I mean no disrespect to St. Michaels or CTK who have very good basketball teams but for what they did last year they are just ranked awfully high. I actually believe that Bergtraum who only lost Leary and Parnell and brings back the core of their team with some exceptional young talent will again be the team to beat and in the last decade they are time tested and proven. They just go out and win. Going back to 2004 when we beat Bergtraum as the #1 Team in the country by USA Today I feel that we have proven over time that we have won big games year after year and deserve a little respect for that. All that being said, we may go out and not win a game this year, but if these kids are anything like past SJB Teams, they'll find a way to win. As human beings we should all not be so naieve that we feel we are impervious to bias. That is all I was trying to say. And I must say that I agree with another poster who said that too much credence is given to the overlapping of AAU and high school ball. They are both unique and distinct animals. Good Luck this season at hoopgurlz and I think I'll concentrate on getting my team ready for the season now and leave the lobbying to the professionals. Oh, you can call me Coach but if we ever share a taco you can call me what my mother calls me.

Of course I respect your right to disagree, but why do you keep pushing the bias thing? What is our bias? Since we cover the summer, that makes an easy target, but we cover both. What I mainly don't like about your approach is your questioning your own ranking by questioning those of others -- which is the button I simply hate seeing pushed. In my book that's "hating." Talk about your team, but don't put down others to raise the view of yours. That, I cannot respect.

I also cannot understand your insistence on telling us that other media organizations rely on the past. We are not those other media organizations and I dare say we put far more effort into our rankings since we actually go out and see the teams. Mindi's put in almost fulltime work the past few weeks gathering information for these as well.