Lady OR a Gentleman

[ifyousayso]

In a recent article C. Viv of Rutgers says it is time to get rid of the "Lady" attached to the names of womens basketball and that it should be about equality.

Some say on the court there is nothing resembling "ladies" as they try to dominate and outperform their opponents...

Could you imagine the Gentlemen Vols or Gentlemen Blue Devils it is difficult at best to think of a physical game of basketball making reference to "Gentlemen" so why Ladies why not just the Men "ABC" Team and the Women "ABC" Team?


READ HERE (http://sportsline.com/ncaawbasketball/story/10106574)

[FFCoach]

Aren't there more important issues regarding Girls basketball to care about? Who cares if Lady____ is used? I actually like the distinction.

[ifyousayso]

I am sure there are bigger issues in womens basketball and even bigger issues than womens basketball just in general...life, comes to mind :)

Please share with us some issues that we can discuss...I enjoy a big issue here and there to get my gray matter moving.

By the way, see the steroid thread...that one you might like.

[FFCoach]

Is Lady Vols instead of just Vols somehow demeaning?

[ifyousayso]

That was my question too. Does having Lady in the name of a team devalue the womens game as opposed to the mens game?

[FFCoach]

I don't think it does. I don't get why you think it does.

[ifyousayso]

A topic that I read an article on so I posed the question opening it up for whomever thought it worthy of comment...guess that leaves you and me at this point.

Since I have not stated my opinion I suppose it is up to the University as to what they want to call their team. Except for C. Viv she took matters into her own hands and ended the "lady" prefix. For me I can see where it does and yet doesnt matter I suppose.

I like to bring topics to the board which may evoke interesting perspectives from a knowledgeable base of posters. You will see I am all over the place when it comes to topics, some more relevent than others.

[FFCoach]

Fair enough

[NYTraveller]

Sometimes the "Lady" usage can be pretty ridiculous - Lady Rams, Lady Bulls, etc.

[glenn]

FFCoach, I'm the one who doesn't get how you don't get this. Qualifying anything is demeaning. The "real" anything is male? How would you feel if society considered everything female to be the legitimate usage and all the male team mascots were preceded by Gentleman ___ ? It's ridiculous. I had been refusing to use Lady Vols, for example, and think I fell off the wagon in a moment of weakness this weekend, but plan to continue dropping "Lady" anything from mascot names. Yes, I understand that Tennessee has that nickname trademarked. But if they had "Jap" or N****r" or "Beaner" trademarked, it does not legitimize those uses either.

[FFCoach]

Glenn, I love this website and compliment you for it but come on, I think you are going off the deep end on this. To even remotely equate "Lady Vols" to "Jap" or N****r" or "Beaner" is ridiculous. I attend many games of my kids local High School and the girls teams are often called the "Lady Rams". I've yet to come encounter anyone offended by the term. This is an example of Political Correctness run-amok.

[glenn]

I love your logic, FFCoach! Since you follow a team that incorporates "Lady" into its nickname and no one has complained about it to you, that means it's all right. I'm sure that's how the KKK justifies its views, too. We have been demeaning females since the dawn of society, so I don't think this qualifies as "political correctness."

[FFCoach]

So using the term Lady Vols or Lady Rams is demeaning to women and a step along the path towards KKK like mentality? I guess I've just missed the ground swell of outrage surrounding the use of such terms. Somehow my daughter who plays for the Lady Rams isn't insulted by it.

[glenn]

Let me give you a few hints, FFCoach. To claim that your teenaged daughter doesn't think a certain way doesn't hold any water. Haven't you had a part in shaping her viewpoints? I don't know if I have to hit you over the head with an anvil or what, but this is a website that is an advocate of girl's and women's basketball and therefore AN ADVOCATE OF GIRLS AND WOMEN. You can consult some other parents on this, but your stay on this forum isn't going to be long if you are going to argue in favor of demeaning girls and women.

[FFCoach]

Sorry Glen. I simply don't agree that by not taking issue with the term Lady XXX, I'm in favor of demeaning girls and women. I don't think that's fair.

[ladiesfirst]

Glenn,

Obviously, FFCoach has hit a nerve. It happens. But please consider that if close friends, C. Vivian Stringer and Pat Summitt can respectfully disagree on such a sensitive subject, you, and any of your members should be entitled to do likewise.

I'm certanily NOT an authority on this subject. I'm only a small time sports reporter, who writes primarily for a local sports weekly, and for my own little (very little) website. Recently, I've limited my writings and opinions to the female side of athletics, because, I'm one of those who feels strongly (as you obviously do) that women, for decades haven't gotten their fair share of coverage, sponsorship, etc.. What you're doing with this website -the countless hours and expenses you and Chris are devoting to this entity - hoopgurlz.com, is commendable. Please, keep up the good work.

However, you should expect that some of your members will occasionally disagree. Even with you. On this particular thread, you're disagreement is with "FFCoach," who doesn't appear to be doing anything disrespectful. He/she's simply disagreeing. You seem to be suggesting that due his/her disagreement with you, she/he should be walloped on the head. Dialogue is inherently one of your most powerful means of making your own point. If FFCoach is wrong on this, then FFCoach will only solidify your correctness.

But, Removed from the Sight?

For my two cents, I don't regard this debate as anything but, opposing viewpoints. There appears no attempt, by anybody, to degrade Women. I hope this doesn't threaten my membership.

For what it's worth, besides my two sons, I have a 27 year old daughter who played a little soccer during the eighties. I also have Six Wonderful Sisters, who never had the opportunity to participate in sports. After high school, ALL of them enlisted in the United States Marines Corps. The "Lady Marines." The "Women Marines." They say they're okay with that; and thus, I'm okay with that. I'm also okay that Coach Stringer doesn't like the "Lady" label.

[arbitraryj]

Whoa, I see this is a contentious topic.

I may be off base with this one but I'm not sure I agree you either Glenn. (go with me) The term Lady was not attached to demean but to distinguish. In sports where there are both men and women's teams, the men's team exisited first. So when the women's team was formed, it was a way of distinguishing which team you were talking about. You don't see this in baseball and softball because they are distinguished by the name of the sport. Glenn, I'd compare it to calling a father Joe and the son Jr.

I happen to like the complexity involved in a Lady who can kick your butt on the court a la Kill Bill. Lucy Lui is a lady but I wouldn't want to get in a fight with her.

I happen to think the bigger issue is not wheter you say Lady Vols or just Vols (I use these terms interchangably). The bigger issue as Ladiesfirst says is how the men's team are treated in comparison to the women's teams when it comes to coverage, sponsorship, etc. A striking example is Pro ball. You can catch more bowling and poker on ESPN than WNBA games. And what about the NCAA tourney coverage?! If not for Title IX you would see an even larger disparity.

If men and women's teams are given the same respect and support, I don't think anyone would care about what names they use. I would favor changing the name if I thought it would help change the way the teams are treated. I have a bigger problem hearing women's sports coverage that dishes about who the players are dating instead of what they are doing on the court.

And Glenn, Lady is not a racist insult. To me, a name change just seems superficial considering the bigger battle is in the definition of what it means to be a lady and how we treat ladies. I tell my daughter that being an athlete and a lady is not a contradiction in terms. And, I don't want anyone to send her a message that being called a lady is somehow an insult when it should be a compliment.

[ifyousayso]

For me I think all of our players should be ladies off the court and outside of basketball, just as I would like our male players to be gentlemen off the court and outside of basketball.

On the court I want aggressive, eye of the tiger, never quit, tough detemined, will to win and downright mean at times. None of those things remind me of a Lady or Gentleman, but. basketball players, as many athletes must leave it on the court.

One of the issues I have with the Lady attachment to female basketball teams is that Lady is not synonymous with the qualities or any defitinition that any coach would ever ask a player to be on the court, nor is Gentleman.

Definition of Lady by Meriam Webster's Dictionary:
woman of refinement and gentle manners

What part of that is a basketball player? Gentle Manners...I can see it now...Oh you want to score...Let me move aside as to not be in your way. That would be the Lady like thing to do, would it not?

And you mention other sports such as baseball and softball. Exactly why do women not play with a baseball instead of a softball? I have always wondered that one. Maybe to distinguish the fact that baseball is a little to quick of a game for girls...I just dont get that one either.

I think that it is important to break down stereotypes, and that includes the perception that female basketball players dont have the toughness on the court that male players display...hence they are "ladies".

Unfortunately labels in our society have been used for centuries and words that are not in any way flagorant in nature in and of themselves can be when used with a specific group as it takes on another deeper meaning. These are our Ladies, refined and gentle mannered ladies that want to play basketball so we let them...

Let's just drop the Lady part and then there is no room for misinterpretation as to the intent.

[teammom4]

What will we call them? It's basketball season... Hey do you know if the Vols are on tonight? Which Vols? The GIRLS team. That's what a lot of people refer to them as. I believe my daughter won't have this issue at the next level although she was a Lady Warrior for three years. I think a Wolfpack is a Wolfpack...even though they do have two physical mascots..Mr. & Mrs. Wolf(which both are really cute) :) But other than that I believe they're just NC State's Women's Basketball Team AKA NC State Wolfpack.
It appears that some universities have opted to use it & some to lose it, which I believe is their choice because the truth of the matter is that most people refer to them as "the girls' team" at least until they are talking about pro.

Mind-blunder, I forgot they are the "WOLFPACK WOMEN" also but still no "Lady"...
Are the Tar Heels, Blue Devils or Terps womens' teams labeled ?

[ifyousayso]

I thought that the womens basketball team at Maryland used to call themselves Lady Terpins but, online they do not refer to themselves to other than the womens basketball team or the Terpins...

http://umterps.cstv.com/sports/w-baskbl/spec-rel/052307aad.html

No Lady Blue Devils either...
http://www.goduke.com/SportSelect.dbml?DB_OEM_ID=4200&KEY=&SPID=1846&SPSID=22760

and no Lady Tar Heels...
http://tarheelblue.cstv.com/sports/w-baskbl/unc-w-baskbl-body.html

[hoopsfan]

I've followed and enjoyed the sight for some time but just joined today. I think the debate is a spirited one and can see points on both sides of the issue. I can't believe that anyone using the term LadyVols or Lady(pick the team or school) intends to insult or demean anyone.

It seems a bit heavy handed to threaten to remove someone from the site for believing Lady____ is acceptable.

[asiancoach]

Just to chime in. I never knew that the term "lady" was offensive, if that is the case I will cease from using it. From the article and from people I have discussed this with it seems that the issue is not that the term is offensive but that it says in a sence that they are a little less than thier male counterparts. Meaning I am a journalist, Chris and Glen are journalist, but Kathy is a "lady or female" journalist. Kathy may feel that the term "lady or female" in front of her title is demeaning and want to be known as a journalist that is also a female. V. Stringer had a documentary a few years back that I just rewatched called "Ladies...It's just a game" and she used the term "ladies" on several occasions in addressing her team. I put in a call to her to get some clarification but she hardly ever returns my calls, but if she does I will let you know whats said. All in all I think that the point that was being made was that the players are athletes just like the males and the males weren't called the "men ____" and in this land of equality some would prefer not to be called the "lady ____". Side note: some bad nicknames I've seen are the "lady dogs", "lady bull frogs", "lady shewolves", "lady cowboys", "lady bulldogs", "lady gold diggers".

[gan0l3]

I've seen it from both sides, I don't necessarily think it's offensive, but I remember reading in one of the high school sports oriented columns, that the women's basketball team wanted to drop the "Lady" because they wanted to be a "insert mascot" here like every other team. And I agreed in that there is nothing "lady" about them when competing in an athletic endeavor. The school I'm most familiar with has a Seminole as the mascot, and it's never referred to as "Home of the Noles, and Lady Noles" it's simply "Home of the Noles". Even looking at the post where it showed the history of uniforms, I can see where a "Lady" moniker may have been proper and appropriate, but the young women of today don't run around in satin dresses and slippers. So I do agree that I wouldn't mind seeing the "Lady" run it's course and be dropped.

[ifyousayso]

Just to chime in. I never knew that the term "lady" was offensive, if that is the case I will cease from using it. From the article and from people I have discussed this with it seems that the issue is not that the term is offensive but that it says in a sence that they are a little less than thier male counterparts. Meaning I am a journalist, Chris and Glen are journalist, but Kathy is a "lady or female" journalist. Kathy may feel that the term "lady or female" in front of her title is demeaning and want to be known as a journalist that is also a female. V. Stringer had a documentary a few years back that I just rewatched called "Ladies...It's just a game" and she used the term "ladies" on several occasions in addressing her team. I put in a call to her to get some clarification but she hardly ever returns my calls, but if she does I will let you know whats said. All in all I think that the point that was being made was that the players are athletes just like the males and the males weren't called the "men ____" and in this land of equality some would prefer not to be called the "lady ____". Side note: some bad nicknames I've seen are the "lady dogs", "lady bull frogs", "lady shewolves", "lady cowboys", "lady bulldogs", "lady gold diggers".



When addressing the team as you mentioned C.Viv called them ladies...yes individually they are ladies, just as the male team are probably addressed occasionally as gentleman. But, the team name should be the same.

[proudpapa]

Just an opinion but I think their are a few things to think about when dealing with such issues.


What is the INTENT of the user? Was the word in question intentionally being used to demean or degrade someone? Take the "N" word for example, I personally think it is one of the most demeaning, hateful things a person could say about or to someone who is an African American - but like it or not, in some circles, African Americans use that word to describe a friend. If a white person uses that word, 99.9% of the time that idiot meant it in a hateful way. Yes the word idiot was meant to demean AND degrade someone who uses the "N" word in a hateful way :D



As a whole is their an uproar from society, or a large portion of a particular group about using such words to describe someone or something? For example, the mascot for the University of Illinois I believe was an Indian - or at least someone who was dressed up in some Indian clothing, and enough of society, probably a large portion of the Indian society said they did not like this depiction of them and so the mascot was done away with. At least that is my understanding of the situation.

What I think we have to be careful of is having to bow down to the whims of one person who happens to be offended by a word. I do understand their may be others that are offended by that word, but as a whole society has no problem with using the term Lady Vols, when describing the Tennessee women's basketball team. And I can say with most certainty that when someone uses the word Lady Vols - they are not using it with the intent to demean or degrade someone.

I have no problem not saying a particular word (in this case Lady) to that person who is offended by it. I have no problem not saying that word in her presence. But to tell me that I should stop using that word at all when describing female basketball players is in my opinion, complete overkill. I mean where will something like this stop? Taken to it's nth degree no words would be spoken because everyone in the world is offended by something.

[breakdown]

I think proudpapa makes very good sense. Even if offensive or demeaning in selected circles, "Lady" certainly can't be considered in the same manner as other unquestionably vile terms provided as comparative examples in earlier replies on this subject.

[glenn]

Of course, if you are, in particular, a white male, it is going to be very difficult to understand how something may be demeaning. First of all, intent is almost the least most important factor. What is important is consequence.

Example: Proliferation of anarexic-looking models in magazines and commercials pressuring girls and women into adapting dietary habits that put their overall health at risk. The intention of individual photographers or publishers likely is not, "Hey let's send the message to society that we value only skinny girls." But does the lack of such intention matter to the parents of daughters who die of eating disorders?

The issue to me is the reinforcement of messages to a gender or race or any other kind of grouping that they are subordinant to the rest of the society - in any way. And of course the groupings being demeaned may not even be aware they are being demeaned. Ergo the abused-wife syndrome. Or Jews in the 1930s. I know slaves even challenged those among them who believed slavery was wrong.

[asiancoach]

When addressing the team as you mentioned C.Viv called them ladies...yes individually they are ladies, just as the male team are probably addressed occasionally as gentleman. But, the team name should be the same.


Ifyousayso you quoted my quote but it seems like you were making the same point. The tone of the topic was suggesting that the term "lady" was offensive in itself. I stated that I have never heard of this, just like I didn't kknow the term "Redskin" was offensive as referring to the Washington football team until someone told me. However the tread leads my to believe that calling someone a "lady" would be the same as calling someone a "nappy headed hoe" or even worse. So the point was that if this is the case there are some t.v. personalities that should be repremanded or even fired for calling someone a lady on air.
However in reading the article I didn't get that out of it, and if that was the case why would someone that believes it is offensive use it even if they are addressing the team. Which logically leads me to believe what I stated that, the issue was an issue of minimizing them as athletes by labling the "lady" this or that not that the word "lady" is profane, which seemed to be what was being said.

[ifyousayso]

Ok AsianCoach, trying to keep up with ya here. We may or may not agree. I think the term lady can apply to any female, but, as a part of an athletic team name or used as a differentiation I am not so up on.

[asiancoach]

Ok AsianCoach, trying to keep up with ya here. We may or may not agree. I think the term lady can apply to any female, but, as a part of an athletic team name or used as a differentiation I am not so up on.

That's what I thought we were saying. I didn't want to call some kid a lady outside of basketball and get beat up. I'm with you. I can't fight and Im not very fast.

[hoopsfl]

Isn't generalizing about any race or category of people, i.e., "white male" innappropriate? Of course, if you are, in particular, a white male, it is going to be very difficult to understand how something may be demeaning, is quite a presumptive statement. Everyone is entitled to his or her own opinion but they should not be stated as assumed fact.

Isn't that statement demeaning to white males?

[ifyousayso]

I think Glenn was trying to make a point...

For me, putting Lady in front of a team name has NO purpose. Go to almost any college web page and you will see that they are referred simply as the team name that every sport on the campus uses,yet, they are the women' team.

We want fans that have yet to "want" to watch women's basketball...not Lady's basketball... to get involved and realize that the women's game is an exciting sport with more to offer than some females meeting the title IX quoto..running up and down the court or on their knees every five seconds(anyone remember that?)

It is a title that has long not reflected what the women's game is about. Unless I see a male's team that is called the Gentleman ABC team then it needs changed.

[adamspt2]

At UK, when Bernadette Mattox was coach, she instructed the Marketing department to drop Lady from her team previously known as the LadyKats.The best they could come up with was UK Hoops to refer to the women's team. Only problem is Hoops is pretty generic to basketball so connecting that to the women's team has been difficult. When I refer to the team, I talk about the women's basketball team. On the rare occasion that I'm talking about the 'other' team, I refer to them as the men's basketball team.

I remember at the time not really getting why Coach Mattox cared. Over time, I just incorporated it into my speech. But then a year ago, I went to the University of Kentucky basketball museum. Our state legislature was convinced that basketball was too strenuous for 'girls' and ordered the University to abandon women's basketball. Then I kinda got it. I get the need to differentiate from the men's team. So, for me, on one hand if it's the men's team, on the other hand, it's the women's team.

[glenn]

Adamspt2 actually hits on a great point - on this website, at least, why is there ever any need for Lady or Gentlemen anything? Our motto is: All Girls. All Ball. All the Time. So ... if we are talking Tennessee, are we ever talking about the men's team? No. Therefore "Lady" is unnecessary.

[giraffespots]

Speaking as a female & former athlete, I do NOT like the use of Lady in front of a team name.

Those of you who do not understand why the use of Lady in front of the team name, I assume you are male. I am not trying to demean all you white males out there, but men do NOT know what it is like to BE female and whites do NOT know what it is like to BE a minority. You can quote your daughters all you want, but it does not change the fact that you have no idea. My 13-yr old daughters father cannot understand why she does the things she does and why everything is so dramatic and why he cannot take her shopping for clothes without trying them on. On the other hand, I will never know what it is like to BE a white male. I do know a white male has FAR less hurdles to overcome than I do.

This is not to say white men cannot be sympathetic or understanding or a proponent for female equality. But a white man cannot experience being minority or female, therefore, has far less opportunity to be faced with discrimination.

No, using "Lady" in front of a women's team is not the same as using racist names. HOWEVER, it is COMPARABLE. Discrimination is discrimination regardless of how many TYPES of discrimination there are: racial, sexism, ageism, homophobia, etc. So they are comparable, if not the exact same thing.

Back in the 60s you would hear a black child say "I want to be the best black doctor I can be". But, then people realized that by saying "black" doctor, the child was limiting him(her)self. This is the same as the use of "Lady" in front of a team name limits and lessens that team. It infers that the women's teams are less: "its just the girls team" and women are to be "tolerated" in their sports pursuits. It infers that a female cannot be the best that she can be as a human athlete because that best will always be less than a male; her femaleness will always limit her pursuits.

White children never said "I want to be the best white doctor I can be" and we never refer to the men's team as the Gentlemen Vols.

If the school's mascot is a Tiger does it not refer to ALL school teams, or just the men?

Intent is difficult to gauge. There are many men who do not intend to demean women with their use of "Lady". But because the history is there, the inference is there, as is the demeaning nature. Just because a male doesn't recognize it or agree with it does not change the fact that it is still demeaning to me-a female or to C.Viv-another female, etc.

This is the year 2007. Just because we added "Lady" to all our women's sports teams back in the day (a day when discrimination was all over in all forms) doesn't mean that it is right today. Surely we as a society have grown enough to see that. We have grown enough to take down the "coloreds only/whites only" signs, so why is it so difficult to accept this facet of misogyny? Or, even to stop trying to minimize it? Why do we continue to downplay and dismiss the feelings of women? Because we've always done it that way? Maybe if we stopped differentiating our teams in such a way now, in the future we can say "because we've always done it that way" in a positive light.

Why is it so hard for sports fans to grow and accept that using a racially suspect mascot needs to stop? For me, that is a whole nuther topic. One which I have even more to say than this topic. :eek: I have an extremely unique perspective, so if anyone wants to tackle that issue, ;)

[hoopfan24]

Speaking as a female & former athlete, I do NOT like the use of Lady in front of a team name.

Those of you who do not understand why the use of Lady in front of the team name, I assume you are male. I am not trying to demean all you white males out there, but men do NOT know what it is like to BE female and whites do NOT know what it is like to BE a minority. You can quote your daughters all you want, but it does not change the fact that you have no idea. My 13-yr old daughters father cannot understand why she does the things she does and why everything is so dramatic and why he cannot take her shopping for clothes without trying them on. On the other hand, I will never know what it is like to BE a white male. I do know a white male has FAR less hurdles to overcome than I do.

This is not to say white men cannot be sympathetic or understanding or a proponent for female equality. But a white man cannot experience being minority or female, therefore, has far less opportunity to be faced with discrimination.

No, using "Lady" in front of a women's team is not the same as using racist names. HOWEVER, it is COMPARABLE. Discrimination is discrimination regardless of how many TYPES of discrimination there are: racial, sexism, ageism, homophobia, etc. So they are comparable, if not the exact same thing.

Back in the 60s you would hear a black child say "I want to be the best black doctor I can be". But, then people realized that by saying "black" doctor, the child was limiting him(her)self. This is the same as the use of "Lady" in front of a team name limits and lessens that team. It infers that the women's teams are less: "its just the girls team" and women are to be "tolerated" in their sports pursuits. It infers that a female cannot be the best that she can be as a human athlete because that best will always be less than a male; her femaleness will always limit her pursuits.

White children never said "I want to be the best white doctor I can be" and we never refer to the men's team as the Gentlemen Vols.

If the school's mascot is a Tiger does it not refer to ALL school teams, or just the men?

Intent is difficult to gauge. There are many men who do not intend to demean women with their use of "Lady". But because the history is there, the inference is there, as is the demeaning nature. Just because a male doesn't recognize it or agree with it does not change the fact that it is still demeaning to me-a female or to C.Viv-another female, etc.

This is the year 2007. Just because we added "Lady" to all our women's sports teams back in the day (a day when discrimination was all over in all forms) doesn't mean that it is right today. Surely we as a society have grown enough to see that. We have grown enough to take down the "coloreds only/whites only" signs, so why is it so difficult to accept this facet of misogyny? Or, even to stop trying to minimize it? Why do we continue to downplay and dismiss the feelings of women? Because we've always done it that way? Maybe if we stopped differentiating our teams in such a way now, in the future we can say "because we've always done it that way" in a positive light.

Why is it so hard for sports fans to grow and accept that using a racially suspect mascot needs to stop? For me, that is a whole nuther topic. One which I have even more to say than this topic. :eek: I have an extremely unique perspective, so if anyone wants to tackle that issue, ;)


I would have to give this post a thumbs up as being probably the best explanation of them all.

So if I am correct, this whole "lady" thing isn't about the word being offensive, it is REALLY about, making sure that men's and women's basketball are seen as being on the same level of importance and credibility.

Because of the history of women being considered a lesser sex than men, attaching the word lady to the Vols - does EXACTLY the same thing as saying..."Not bad for a girl".

There is a fine line though. Tony Dunge being the first African American Coach to win a superbowl. On one hand you want to applaud his accomplishments in that he has proven that no matter what ethnicity you are - it can be done. On the other hand we don't want to applaud him for being the first African American coach to win a superbowl because it somehow lessens what he has done as if because he is African American he wasn't supposed to be able to acheive that level of success. Which again, I think as another had said, it kind of goes back to the intent of the comment.

The lines are somewhat blurry though. Do we applaud a young lady because she can dunk.... or do we just brush it off as no big deal because after all, their are lots of people that can dunk. :confused:
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[ifyousayso]

Now we are getting somewhere.

At the TOC a couple years back (think Maya Moore, Tina Charles, Jackie Gemelos, EDD, etc etc) a friend of a parent sitting beside me after watching four days of incredible basketball said to me, " You know before this week I never considered girls basketball players athletes, I am a new fan"

These girls bust their butt every day to elevate the game to the next level. We must be advocates for these players to remove any stigma that might lessen people's perception of them and their sport.

[giraffespots]

So if I am correct, this whole "lady" thing isn't about the word being offensive, it is REALLY about, making sure that men's and women's basketball are seen as being on the same level of importance and credibility.

Because of the history of women being considered a lesser sex than men, attaching the word lady to the Vols - does EXACTLY the same thing as saying..."Not bad for a girl".


IMO, Yes. That is really what Title IX as a whole is all about.

QUOTE=hoopfan24;1164]There is a fine line though. Tony Dunge being the first African American Coach to win a superbowl. On one hand you want to applaud his accomplishments in that he has proven that no matter what ethnicity you are - it can be done. On the other hand we don't want to applaud him for being the first African American coach to win a superbowl because it somehow lessens what he has done as if because he is African American he wasn't supposed to be able to acheive that level of success. Which again, I think as another had said, it kind of goes back to the intent of the comment. [/QUOTE]
This is point of view. We want to applaud Dungy for being the first. Being the first anything is an accomplishment and a sign that things are opening up. On the other hand, we don't want our children to STRIVE to be the best "black" doctor, we want them to STRIVE to be the best "doctor" they can be. Adding adjectives limits us. Dungy more likely set a goal to win a Super Bowl than set a goal to be the first African American to do so. The reason it must be mentioned at all is so that children will see that being black or any minority should not limit what they can achieve.

We want our girls to strive to be the best ATHLETES they can be. NOT the best GIRL athlete. The point is to strive to be the best you can be, boy or girl, and to always do your best to live up to your potential.

QUOTE=hoopfan24;1164]IThe lines are somewhat blurry though. Do we applaud a young lady because she can dunk.... or do we just brush it off as no big deal because after all, their are lots of people that can dunk. :confused: [/QUOTE]

Comparing boys abilities with girls abilities is comparing two different things. The question is, is that young lady stretching her athletic potential and did she have to work hard to accomplish this milestone? If she can dunk, I would say yes, and that merits applause. If a 6'8" guy can dunk, is he living up to his athletic potential and how hard did he have to work to accomplish that dunk? Probably not, which is why that would get so much applause.

[YourCrimsonNightmare]

There are fewer and fewer teams that precede their nicknames with "Lady" every year. Some schools have never used the title for their women's teams, such as my own Sooners. I guess that's why I've always thought that the term was sort of a an antibellum throwback to the days of dukes and lords and ladies of the court.

And I've ALWAYS wondered why it was so important to use Lady for the women's team, but totally unneeded to use Gentleman for the men's. It's not an issue I really discuss much though, there are too many people who get upset and think that their teams are being insulted by any suggestion of change.

But I've always thought that the differential in naming wasn't in deference to the women's teams, but almost an excuse to dismiss their programs as somehow more dainty, more delicate, less like actual sports competitors. Maybe that take is entirely wrong, and some of the most successful teams ever have Lady in the name. But it's not like they wouldn't have been just as good without it.

And as far as being ladies goes, I think that most women's players fit that bill, with or without the title. The ones on my team are academically accomplished and role models of civic responsibility, pretty much across the board. Certainly many men's teams cannot claim that high ground.

[breakdown]

You make some interesting points giraffespots and have given me things to consider. Where I part company with you is stating use of the term "Lady" is discriminatory and comparable to racist terms. As an earlier reply stated, it's distinctive. I have no issue with those that believe the term Lady is innappropriate and should not be used. I don't however believe that those who do use it should be accused of demeaning women. This is an issue where honest debate and difference of opinion should be able exist without being accusatory and categorizing either side in unfavorable terms.

[lboogie]

My high school mascot is a Beaver...and we were know as the Lady Beavers...and yes we petitioned the school to get it changed.

[ifyousayso]

Were you successful? Too funny!!!!

[lboogie]

http://www.jamaicahighschool.org/ALUM/beaver%20blue%20copy.jpg

I think they refer to some girls teams as "Lady" but we petitioned to get a new mascot. But since Jamaica is named for the Jameco Indians, who lived in the Jamaica area and the word "jameco" means beaver in the Algonquin language it wasn't going to happen. But he is a cute lil guy.

[ifyousayso]

GOOD LAWD!!! Attack of the killer Giant Beaver..

[giraffespots]

You make some interesting points giraffespots and have given me things to consider. Where I part company with you is stating use of the term "Lady" is discriminatory and comparable to racist terms. As an earlier reply stated, it's distinctive. I have no issue with those that believe the term Lady is innappropriate and should not be used. I don't however believe that those who do use it should be accused of demeaning women. This is an issue where honest debate and difference of opinion should be able exist without being accusatory and categorizing either side in unfavorable terms.


OK. Please know that I am not trying to accuse everyone who uses the term as demeaning women, at least not to intentionally demean. To me, intent is only a miniscule part of the issue. I do believe most people, including the much maligned straight white male group, have honorable intentions. It is the effect that is important. One of my bosses once told me, "Perception is 90% of reality. If your workers perceive you to be a tyrant, you better look at your actions. If your workers perceive you to be a "good" boss, you probably are." I take that to heart whenever I am in a supervisory position. When I was 4 or 5, one of my aunts met us for the first time. She scooped me up and exclaimed, "What a cute chubby girl you are" I never heard the word cute, but chubby stayed with me until I became a mother myself. All during high school I avoided cameras and my self esteem was nil because of how "chubby"/fat I thought I was (I wasn't really). My aunt never intended to destroy my self image, but she did: perception is 90% of reality. (Now at 45, I AM a chubby girl :p , cute, not so much, but definitely chubby)

"Lessening" the pursuits and accomplishments of women/women athletes leads to discriminatory practices. Hence the need for Title IX. Anytime a "majority" has an advantage in opportunities, the next, and easy, step is to take advantage of that. This is discrimination. So, IMO, the two are related; distinctive, yes; but still related.

I don't feel that we can separate discrimination types when it is convenient. That why we have legislation for protected groups, to help mitigate that advantage. I have a multi-racial family. In my experience, gays are extremely accepting of this. I feel it is due to the fact that they have experienced discrimination themselves. Sexual orientation discrimination is not the same as racial discrimination, however, the experience of being discriminated against is similar. We get it

This is why I feel that these two issues are comparable. What IS different is that it is now politically correct to embrace racial diversity, but embracing the differences between male/female sports is not yet a part of being politically correct. (I do understand that political correctness is becoming a three headed monster)

Here's a thought. A female lion is called a lioness. How about the Penn State Nittany Lionesses?

BTW, I do like having this dialogue, and I do respect all of your opinions.

[scoutnwhoops]

White male checking in here so have your way with me...

But I am curious why the school mascot has to be different for each sports team? The Nittany Lion mascot represents the school as a whole doesn't it? My female friends that graduated with me from the University of Washington but did not play a sport consider themselves Huskies, not Lady Huskies so why for sports with two teams do we need a seperate mascot?

[hoopfan24]

What is kind of sad is that out of all of the great posts on this board, this one has the most responses to it.

45 replies and over 1,000 views. Just shows how our human nature gravitates toward controversy.

Here is a thought - how bout creating a Basketball Soap Opera Forum :D

[ifyousayso]

White male checking in here so have your way with me...

But I am curious why the school mascot has to be different for each sports team? The Nittany Lion mascot represents the school as a whole doesn't it? My female friends that graduated with me from the University of Washington but did not play a sport consider themselves Huskies, not Lady Huskies so why for sports with two teams do we need a seperate mascot?


My thoughts as well...

[breakdown]

giraffespots - good points although I still disagree with some of them. It's nice to have a dialogue with differing opinions and mutual respect. Without question is my love for ladies basketball and if dropping "Lady" further promotes the game, I'm all for it.

[ifyousayso]

What is kind of sad is that out of all of the great posts on this board, this one has the most responses to it.

45 replies and over 1,000 views. Just shows how our human nature gravitates toward controversy.

Here is a thought - how bout creating a Basketball Soap Opera Forum :D

Great threads are all in the eye of the beholder.

[hoopfan24]

Great threads are all in the eye of the beholder.

Ahhhhhhh Good threads? :confused:

:D

[asiancoach]

http://www.jamaicahighschool.org/ALUM/beaver%20blue%20copy.jpg

I think they refer to some girls teams as "Lady" but we petitioned to get a new mascot. But since Jamaica is named for the Jameco Indians, who lived in the Jamaica area and the word "jameco" means beaver in the Algonquin language it wasn't going to happen. But he is a cute lil guy.

Iboogie I bet that the Gentlemen Beavers weren't too happy with the mascot either.

Enlight of these new revelations, I have decided to cease the use of the word "lady" from here on out it will be known as the "L word" :)

[teammom4]

AC, I read a couple of your posts in our neighborhood & knew it had something to do with this topic, but now I'm clear!:)

I like the way GS put this topic into perspective, and I agree with many of the points.
My daughter's HS school coach just started a summer league. When he came up with the name he put a lot of thought into it. First he decided what he wanted it to mean and when he came up with it he made a concious decision to NOT put Lady in front of it! This was even before this all hit the fan, and now although my daughter is gone, I guess I appreciate it more. I believe that a lot more programs no matter the level will soon drop it & most new ones will elect not to use it at all, this will be a turning point & we will all soon remember when...

I just left a luncheon for the All Met Athletes in our area & listened to the MC announce each Boy & Girl Team, like I had posted earlier I think this sticks through the college years for most. When I was leaving I stopped past the restroom, the women's was marked Ladies and the men's was marked Gentlemen not just RESTROOM!!:)

How do you guys feel about the "women" thing like Wolfpack Women? They have their own facility separate from the men's bball team, so I do believe some kind of distinction is in order..