Epiphanny Prince - One For Clay

[Hoopsking]

http://sports.espn.go.com/ncw/columns/story?columnist=hays_graham&id=3223032

Mr. Clay Kallum:

I kindly ask that you read this story and comment. You were one of the ones who didn't think Prince was all that of a player.

[BrooklynSaints]

http://sports.espn.go.com/ncw/columns/story?columnist=hays_graham&id=3223032

Mr. Clay Kallum:

I kindly ask that you read this story and comment. You were one of the ones who didn't think Prince was all that of a player.

Reading an article is not going to change Clay's opinion. I was at USA Basketball so I got a clear understanding of why Clay felt the way he did. First opinions are very hard to live down in life.

[CaliforniaBasketball]

What did Clay say, what did EP do to make him a non-believer?

I think she is a great player but when I think her name I still come to the foul on Candice Wiggins at the end of the Stanford Rutgers game, silly silly mistake!

[ClayKallam]

I confess I didn't read the article, but Epiphanny Prince has played much better than I thought she would at Rutgers, and has shown a lot of heart and toughness. I don't know if she's quite at Cappie Pondexter's level, but she's got two more seasons to improve.

Add her to the list of players I was wrong about ...

[Hoopsking]

Well Saints, looks like Clay was man enough to admit that he was wrong on his opinions on Prince.

Thanks Clay.

[BrooklynSaints]

Well Saints, looks like Clay was man enough to admit that he was wrong on his opinions on Prince.

Thanks Clay.

I would say we would have to go back and review his opinion and see if it was warranted at the time.

My point is I can understand why he felt the way that he did.
Since we live in NYC we have the opportunity to see Prince multiple times. That allows us to get a good evaluation of what she is capable of doing. In NYC Prince was always rated higher than Tina Charles. I don't think there was anyone in NYC who doubted Prince athletic ability. I feel the difference was that Tina was willing to compete in National USA events while Prince showed no interest in doing that.

As a result Tina was rated higher than Prince. While Prince carried a label for failing to compete.

[Hoopsking]

You have a valid point Saints, but let's not harp on what happen there. Let's look at the product now.

Tina was the best player in H.S. that year and is a first team or second team all american this year.

Prince is doing exactly what I'd thought she be doing at the college level.

[ClayKallam]

All right, Hoopsking (and everyone else) -- let's all own up to those players we misjudged. Here are some recent ones for me ...,

I missed on Prince (though my written record will show that starting about midway through her senior season, when I began to hear she was playing hard all the time, that I upped her stock).

I was wrong about Kayla Pedersen, now at Stanford.

I thought Brittainey Raven of Texas would be better than she was.

So who did you whiff on, Hoopsking? And everyone else?

The reason I'm asking is that I think it's a really valuable exercise to go back and look at all the predictions we made, and realize that, you know, we aren't right all the time. It's very easy to only remember the times we were right, but we've all been wrong -- and so have the best talent evaluators in the land.

It's also good because sometimes we can see a pattern in our misjudgements: We tend to give too much credit to kids who played like we did, or had skills we didn't. We may overvalue posts and points, and not give full credit to slashing small forwards.

Don't be shy -- jump right in.

[letsski]

Clay,

Lets not forget Danielle Robinson. I believe your comment was that you weren't sure she could compete with elite players and that she might struggle to find minutes at Oklahoma.

(I could be wrong on the exact nature of your comments, but they were somewhere in that ballpark.)

I do respect that it is very difficult to predict success at the next level and applaud you for having the guts to state an opinion.

[BrooklynSaints]

All right, Hoopsking (and everyone else) -- let's all own up to those players we misjudged. Here are some recent ones for me ...,

I missed on Prince (though my written record will show that starting about midway through her senior season, when I began to hear she was playing hard all the time, that I upped her stock).

I was wrong about Kayla Pedersen, now at Stanford.

I thought Brittainey Raven of Texas would be better than she was.

So who did you whiff on, Hoopsking? And everyone else?

The reason I'm asking is that I think it's a really valuable exercise to go back and look at all the predictions we made, and realize that, you know, we aren't right all the time. It's very easy to only remember the times we were right, but we've all been wrong -- and so have the best talent evaluators in the land.

It's also good because sometimes we can see a pattern in our misjudgements: We tend to give too much credit to kids who played like we did, or had skills we didn't. We may overvalue posts and points, and not give full credit to slashing small forwards.

Don't be shy -- jump right in.

I would put Pederson on my list. I saw Pederson playing at the Adidas top 10 her Soph & Junior year. I just was not that impressed although Glenn told me she would be the next Wiggins at Stanford.

During the XMAS break I asked why is Stanford so much better this year than last year. I was told Pederson.

[ClayKallam]

Hoopsking, I'm still waiting. Surely, you misjudged one player in your many years in the game ...

[intelligenthoodlum]

1. The IH never thought that Renee Montgomery would make her money as a SG.

2. The IH never thought that Charde Houston would stay at Connecticut for four years.

3. The IH never thought that Angel McCoughtry would ever fix that jump shot.

4. The IH never thought that Erlana Larkins would end up being a back-to-the-basket center.

5. The IH never thought that Kara Braxton would make it to the WNBA.

6. The IH never thought that Morghan Medlock wouldn't be playing 30-35 minutes a game by now.

[ClayKallam]

Thanks, IH ...

I don't know the East Coast players as well as you do, so I didn't see those kids, but I too was wrong about Braxton. I wasn't quite as sold on Medlock as you were, but I sure agree about Larkins.

Oh Hoopsking ... I'm still waiting.

[Hoopsking]

Clay lol. You have me dying over here.

Of course, I've been wrong before Clay on my predictions. Nobody's perfect. My point is that Prince was a high profile player, so to me it seemed obvious she was destined for stardism.

My point is Clay that I have a great feel for basketball in the NYC area and I've seen Prince as well as many other players in the NYC area play. I can't watch a player one time and pass judgment. I have to see the entire body of work.

It's the same with you about St. Mikes. They have one loss and yet you are still not impressed. I have seen them play and i'm telling you that are a top 15 team in the Country.

[BrooklynSaints]

Clay lol. You have me dying over here.

Of course, I've been wrong before Clay on my predictions. Nobody's perfect. My point is that Prince was a high profile player, so to me it seemed obvious she was destined for stardism.

My point is Clay that I have a great feel for basketball in the NYC area and I've seen Prince as well as many other players in the NYC area play. I can't watch a player one time and pass judgment. I have to see the entire body of work.

It's the same with you about St. Mikes. They have one loss and yet you are still not impressed. I have seen them play and i'm telling you that are a top 15 team in the Country.

In other words, Looks like you will be waiting for a long time

[ClayKallam]

So Hoopsking ...

Who have you been wrong about?

St. Mike's lost to Woodson, which has played a much, much tougher schedule and a very good record. It would seem to me that if one of those two teams were going to be ranked, it would have to be Woodson.


But again, you called me out on a mistake, which I admitted. Now it's your turn ...

[tinkb]

The Real Basketball Report 2007-2008 Pre-Season Top Twenty

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Alright, sports fans, the IH and the RBR wants you all to really understand that BALLERS NEVER GO ON VACATION! It's time for us basketball junkies to start debating who the top basketball teams in the MD/DC/VA region will be.
Thr RBR is putting it out there, RIGHT NOW! Based on what happened last school season, and what we saw this spring and summer, here are the 20 joints that the RBR is looking at right now:

1. Notre Dame Academy/Middleburg, Va.;
2. Eleanor Roosevelt/Greenbelt, Md.;
3. Hidden Valley/Roanoke, Va.;
4. Hampton/Hampton, Va.;
5. Riverdale Baptist/Upper Marlboro, Md.;
6. Bishop McNamara/Forestville, Md.;
7.H.D. Woodson/Washington, D.C.;
8. Heritage/Newport News, Va.;
9. Thomas Edison/Alexandria, Va.;
10. Paul VI/Fairfax, Va.;
11. Seton Keough/Baltimore, Md.;
12. Robert E. Lee/Springfield, Va.;
13. St. Frances Academy/Baltimore, Md.;
14. Arundel/Gambrills, Md.;
15. Oak Hill Academy/Mouth of Wilson, Va.;
16. Good Counsel/Olney, Md.;
17. Stonewall Jackson/Manassas, Va.;
18. Princess Anne/Virginia Beach, Va.
19. Woodrow Wilson/Portsmouth, Va.;
20. Paint Branch/Burtonsville, Md.

Of course, there are about 10-15 teams that the RBR needs to see in the fall leagues. Between now and the end of October, this Top Twenty will go to a Top Forty, with a WHOLE LOTTA shiftin' goin' on. We also anticipate the Top Fifty to kick off December 1st, sports fans.
One thing is certain, however: the top three won't change between now and November 1st--1. NDA; 2. E-Roose; 3. The Valley...


intelligenthoodlum
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#2 08-01-2007, 09:23 PM
Hoopsking
Big Apple Moderator Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 567



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Nice lists, but I think St. Michaels Academy out of NYC would whoop them all. lol.

[CamrnCrz1974]

Of course, I've been wrong before Clay on my predictions. Nobody's perfect. My point is that Prince was a high profile player, so to me it seemed obvious she was destined for stardism.

Beinga high profile player doesn't make one destined for stardom. Nina Smith, anyone? Kalee Carey was a second team USA Today All-American. Beth Ostendorf was on the first team.

[Hoopsking]

I've seen Prince long enough to know she was going to be a superstar. Yes I know Nina Smith. She just lost her love for the game. Prince has trimmed down the body fat and is playing very, very well.

Players like her and Tina Charles were no brainers.

[BrooklynSaints]

And Still Clay Waits

[Hoopsking]

Okay Clay, I was big time wrong on Nicole Kaczmarski out of Sachem H.S. in New York. I thought she was going to be a big time player at the collegiate level and then move on to the WNBA.

Okay there you have it Clay.

[ClayKallam]

I knew you could do it ...

But Kaczmarski graduated in 1998 -- so you're perfect since then?

[Hoopsking]

Clay, I don't mean to brag, but I've been pretty much on point with my prediction of H.S. players and how they fared at the collegiate level.

In the NYC area, I have been pretty accurate with the players who moved on to college.

[BrooklynSaints]

Clay, I don't mean to brag, but I've been pretty much on point with my prediction of H.S. players and how they fared at the collegiate level.

In the NYC area, I have been pretty accurate with the players who moved on to college.

Ok then give us your list of 10 current high school NYC players who you feel, barring injury, will make the all freshman college team in their respective conferences.

We can follow up on your list and see how accurate your predictions are.

[ClayKallam]

You also said Lorin Dixon would be able to make shots for UConn, and contribute immediately. Before the injuries, she hardly played, and though she started for a while, she quickly went back to the bench because she's shooting so poorly from the perimeter.

I know it's early, but are you still sure Dixon will shoot well enough to be a star at UConn?

[Hoopsking]

By her Junior year she will be the premier starting point guard Clay. I'm sticking with my guns on this one. She's only a Frosh Clay, give her a chance.

[BrooklynSaints]

You also said Lorin Dixon would be able to make shots for UConn, and contribute immediately. Before the injuries, she hardly played, and though she started for a while, she quickly went back to the bench because she's shooting so poorly from the perimeter.

I know it's early, but are you still sure Dixon will shoot well enough to be a star at UConn?
Things will get crowded next year with the addition of EDD, Hayes & Doty. Dixon got an opportunity to start 9 games this year. That should help her to have an edge next year. Hopefully she will work hard over the summer to improve.

[ClayKallam]

I agree that the jury's still out on Dixon ... but she does need to shoot it better, I think.

And her story may turn to be interesting in another way. Let's say she had gone to Syracuse or Seton Hall -- she'd undoubtedly be starting and developing her game. By the time she graduated, she'd have four years of solid experience and a great resume if she wanted to go play in Europe and make some money.

At UConn, though, the pressure is so great, and the competition is so fierce, that she may wind up getting passed by (I'm not saying she will, and I'm just using her as an example). When kids go to elite programs, there's always the risk that after waiting their turn, all of a sudden a Burger Girl comes in, and they're back on the bench.

Dixon is an exceptional talent, and could well have a wonderful career at UConn -- but if her perimeter game never develops (and some people, such as Jason Kidd, never really learn to shoot well), she might look back and think she would have been better off at a school where she could have played from day one.

[letsski]

I think Danielle Robinson at Oklahoma is proving herself to be one of the elite point guards of the freshman class.

Even though she is not a threat from beyond the arc, defenses still have not been able to stop her penetrating drives to the basket.

Add in her exceptional open court speed and pinpoint passes to the big girls and I think she is showing that she is playing as well as any freshman in the country -(with the exception of Maya Moore of course!)

[connboy]

I think Geno has plans to turn Lorin into another Ketia Swanier; she will probably be the first point guard off the bench. My guess right now is that Caroline Doty will be the starting point guard for UCONN from year two on. Geno see's her as a taller version of Sue Bird. Caroline will not only be a great point guard, but like Sue she can score at will. This would mean that all five of UCONN's starters will be able to score.

[BrooklynSaints]

I agree that the jury's still out on Dixon ... but she does need to shoot it better, I think.

And her story may turn to be interesting in another way. Let's say she had gone to Syracuse or Seton Hall -- she'd undoubtedly be starting and developing her game. By the time she graduated, she'd have four years of solid experience and a great resume if she wanted to go play in Europe and make some money.

At UConn, though, the pressure is so great, and the competition is so fierce, that she may wind up getting passed by (I'm not saying she will, and I'm just using her as an example). When kids go to elite programs, there's always the risk that after waiting their turn, all of a sudden a Burger Girl comes in, and they're back on the bench.

Dixon is an exceptional talent, and could well have a wonderful career at UConn -- but if her perimeter game never develops (and some people, such as Jason Kidd, never really learn to shoot well), she might look back and think she would have been better off at a school where she could have played from day one.

You have made this point before in your comparison of Dixon and Sky Lindsay. Sky has started all year but Dixon has played in much bigger games at this point.

Most likely Swanier could have started at Syracuse or Seton Hall. Do you feel Swanier has a chance of playing in Europe ?

[ClayKallam]

First, pretty much every American college player can play in Europe at some level -- the question is how much money she can make, and how long it will take her to earn a big paycheck.

The first proving ground for salary is the WNBA: If you play well (for $40,000) in the W, you can make $150,000 in Europe. BCS college players who can score and have a good agent can get a decent deal their first year, but then have to prove themselves. The lower the college level, in general, the lower the starting level in Europe (again, exceptions for scorers -- the Europeans don't bring players over to rebound).

Can Ketia Swanier play in Europe? No doubt. Will she make as much as she wants the first year? Probably not, unless she makes a WNBA roster.