The Role of Scouting Services

[pgmom]

"And the girls will be evaluated by the RBR scouting staff, and by several regional and national scouting services."

This is from the RBR showcase discusion. Not much different than what FFS are sayin. A middle man is evaluatin the girls and feeding info to coaches.

Can anyone coment on the importance of middlemen in exposure? Do the college coaches rely on their own jugments or the jugments of people who run showcases an put together rankngs?

[lboogie]

This actually is a good question but it needs to be in a new thread.

Scouting reports are a key part of the recruiting process. Coaches do use them especially when it comes to getting the low-down one potential recruits that are out of their region. Also, there are key tournaments that take place during non-eval periods(i.e. Nike midwest Shoot Out) where the scouting services are the only evaluators in attendance.

Not much different than what FFS are sayin. A middle man is evaluatin the girls and feeding info to coaches.

Actually, I believe you took this out of context. The issue was that the FFS advertised that a certain amount of coaches would be attending, that didn't happen. So saying that some person with the organization is going to let the coaches know "who is good" was not what was advertised. As far as I know the FFS don't run a scouting service.

The RBR is a scouting service and they stated that Sophomore Showcase was going to have national and other regional scouting services in attendance. The colleges are aware that is event is taking place and will be checking the scouting services for updates on players they are following. A professional DVD will also be available to the colleges coaches just in case they don't believe the "middleman"

Do the college coaches rely on their own jugments or the jugments of people who run showcases an put together rankngs?

When you buy a car you research it and look at it on the dealer's web site but surely you will go to the showroom and test drive it before you write the check.

[bballmom]

No one's handing out schollys based upon anything a meat broker says, but some of the smaller schools might turn their head in a direction if they have a specific need to fill.

Well put, Madame Moderateur Boogie

[Pundit2007]

"And the girls will be evaluated by the RBR scouting staff, and by several regional and national scouting services."

This is from the RBR showcase discusion. Not much different than what FFS are sayin. A middle man is evaluatin the girls and feeding info to coaches.

Can anyone coment on the importance of middlemen in exposure? Do the college coaches rely on their own jugments or the jugments of people who run showcases an put together rankngs?

This is college recruiting today! The NCAA has reduced the calendar to much, that people in the know and with good college contacts, become very important in the process. Names that at the top of the list are people like Mike Flynn, Boo Williams, Aggie McCormick and James Nicholes. Anyone of them can pick up the phone and land a player a D1 offer, just on their word!

Furthermore, Boo, Aggie, James, Mike, etc.. are elite showcase organizations... as such they attract top players.

News Flash: UVA recruit, Jazmine Pitts is playing for Boo Williams next year!!!

Now, regarding FFS stealing players... let me first state that I am not a part of the FFS organization. But, truth be told, many of the kids that everyone is complaining about, were considering going to Boo Williams next year.

It happens... if the parents feel that another team gives their kids better opportunities, then wish them luck and move on.

[lboogie]

your font choice is scaring me:p. We already have one syntactically challenged(,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,) member and I know you don't want to lumped in the same category.

PEACE OUT
YOUR KNOW BLIND MODERATOR

[asiancoach]

During the college exposure period their is not a lot of need for "middle men", however during those other periods scouts are very important as we notice with Hoopgurlz and their rankings and the McD's thing, the Parade thing, the Street & Smith thing, the USA basketball thing. Coaches don't rank players scouting services do and all of you cry more about rankings than scholarships anyway. Ranking and prestige to the recruit which is good for the school and future recruits. Video national and regional rankings from scouting seervices can sometimes mean more than a middle man saying a kid on my team is good. Also this sword cuts both ways what if the middle man says she can't play because of personal reasons what does that mean? If colleges could come out I'm sure they would and who knows, colleges have spies (middlemen) of their own that show up to stuff too.

[scoutnwhoops]

Lets also note the fact that there are so many events that a coaching staff with only three coaches allowed to be "working" at one time cannot possibly cover every event. I know coaches will catch one event one day and go to another the next and maybe mix in baby sitting a kid they already know they want.

I know both Glenn and I have been asked by schools if there are kids that would fit their need that are not being widely recruited. The elite kids get a lot of ink and are the face of the sport but the value is for the rest of the players that get the chance to play well against those kids.

I think the ASGR goes 750 deep. I don't know if they know each player's game intimately or not but I know smaller schools rely on those lists for different reasons than high major programs and some schools that recruit in a small region only have zero use for those services and may keep close contacts with hs and club coaches in their region who are more on top of their smaller area than a national service could be.

[michaeliceman]

My major issue with the scouting/ranking services is the bias and/or incompleteness (I know, not a real word) that you sometimes see (especially in the player rankings). I remember a thread here about the 2011 class that purported to rank the players. I pointed out that there were 15-20 kids left off that could/should have been included that I had personally seen play that were as good as/better than kids on the list. Another poster indicated that the ranked players seemed to come from certain areas. It was clear that some of the ranked players were "word of mouth" type choices. So that it what concerns me about the scouting services. I know they do provide a great service to the college coaches who cannot see everyone. But they are not perfect and they cannot see everybody.

[lboogie]

My major issue with the scouting/ranking services is the bias and/or incompleteness (I know, not a real word) that you sometimes see (especially in the player rankings). I remember a thread here about the 2011 class that purported to rank the players. I pointed out that there were 15-20 kids left off that could/should have been included that I had personally seen play that were as good as/better than kids on the list. Another poster indicated that the ranked players seemed to come from certain areas. It was clear that some of the ranked players were "word of mouth" type choices. So that it what concerns me about the scouting services. I know they do provide a great service to the college coaches who cannot see everyone. But they are not perfect and they cannot see everybody.

Most scouting services don't numerically rank underclassmen, usually just list players to watch. Since they are 2011s they probably have had no exposure on the national circuit yet...by the time they are rising juniors they should have been seen and evaluated by at least one regional scouting service. So if the 15/20 players you claim are better than the ranked players do what they are supposed to do in the spring/summer they should get their just do.

Cream rises to the top.

PS:Public scouting report rankings vs. what the college coaches purchase.

Most scouting services/sites will list players names for the public but the actually college scouting report is a lot more detailed and is not geared for the GP.

[Pundit2007]

your font choice is scaring me:p. We already have one syntactically challenged(,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,) member and I know you don't want to lumped in the same category.

PEACE OUT
YOUR KNOW BLIND MODERATOR

I don't know what you mean, but, I have a little eye sight problem... sorry

[lboogie]

..just that your fonts are big and when you are not expecting to see that size on a 22 inch monitor it is like WHOOOOOAAAAAA. But if you have a vision issue I apologize.

[Pundit2007]

..just that your fonts are big and when you are not expecting to see that size on a 22 inch monitor it is like WHOOOOOAAAAAA. But if you have a vision issue I apologize.

It comes from years of looking at computer screens. Also, it looked a bigger after I made the post. I only used size 4.

[da silent 1]

college football has the ap poll, the coaches poll and of course there is the bcs poll. just the mention of that should cause shutters and other actions of angst and disgust over the fact that they just aren't accurate. any poll ranking/scouting service is based on that rater's opinion of what he see's. by design any service whether public or for a specific customer only ( college coaches ) it is designed to be a tool of comparison. of course each individual doing any sort of rating/ranking would love to have all involved customers believe that his or her service is the coup de grass. each rater in most cases is a non biased* participant with some sort of expertise at the subject that volunteers/markets this service to be used as a tool by customers/fans to reach a final decision. that is the business plain and simple. any good service that garners debate and attention has done their job. some one is interested in his or her opinon on the subject matter and at some level is using that service as a tool in the final decision making process. any customer that uses any service solely to make a decision is a candidate for owning the broklyn bridge. i would suggest we give credit to the end user we are talking about ( college ) coaches that good bad or indifferent they know what they are doing and its after all their money, and if at the end of that 5th year bad decisions have been made, their gear is on the outside of university and i need that leased vehicle back too. when comparing these polls you should also catagorize them for what they are. specifically, asr's claim to fame so to speak is that 80 to 90% of the 1500 per class have been seen? street and smith is a combination and is a amalgamation of several polls input. for sure all of these polls are based on the players as high school ballers. one poll in particular is based on a projection of the players as freshmen at the college level and has nothing to do with play in high school. mcdonalds all-american is a high school assessmet as is parade and most of the others. following these players from freshmen entry to sophmore completion you will see that 75% do not live up to their billing in transferrence of their skill set to the collegiate level. folks the customer's know this, trust me, but the reports are and will continue to be a tool. is their politics involved, probably as there is on all of our jobs and other public endevours, that's a fact of life, get over it the system ain't fair it ain't never gonna be fair so take it with the same grain of salt you do when the fans pick the major league or nba all-star teams, dah. it is there to cause discussion and any discussion is good for the girls as long as the discussion does not become overly personal and more than it should. thank you and return of appreciate and welcome from fellow chatters upon my entry into your lively and entertaining discourse about the wonder world of girls/womens basketball american style. glad to be aboard. having said that i apologize for the long oratory as being silent so much when verbage over runs an explosion occurs accompanied by a lot of smoke and noise. when it dies down the result hopefully is cause for thought and knowledge, that being said it is time to do my cicada thing, sweet dreams

[hardym]

Hello all I’m one of the low key followers of the site and I was wondering. Wouldn’t it be cool if the people who rank players would only rank the players they see, and wouldn’t be able to rank the players that play for them? I’ve seen these so called scouting experts pad their player’s stats…. Example she had 30 point and the players only had 15 or so, sounds crazy but I know it goes on. The bad thing about it is the colleges that weren’t in attendance look at that type of thing. In the long run the kid is the ones to lose out. Example: You talk about a kid long enough than it become true, and others players gun for this kid if she wasn’t an elite player from the start or don’t develop to become that player you made her out to be than shame on the person that put that young lady in that position. So if all you experts out there want to give your opinion on a player please tell the truth….

[intelligenthoodlum]

A scouting service, at its root, is merely THAT SCOUT'S OPINION. Of course, the assumption is that: the scout has a specific point of view; the scout knows what the colleges are looking for; the scout knows what he or she is looking at; and, the scout is actually ranking only the players he or she sees personally.
1. If it's YOUR imprint on YOUR scouting service, how can you rank players you haven't seen?
2. The entire point of you being a scout is that you know who the players are, and you know HOW to look at them, so you can tell what their strengths AND their weaknesses are.
3. If you don't watch the colleges and the conferences play on a regular basis, how can you tell a college what they need?
4. From what vantage point do you watch players? Are you watching from an NBA or a WNBA perspective? Do you favor versatility in a player? Do you advocate defensive ability and potential? And so forth, and so on.
Ranking players in a certain order gives the client "comparative analysis"; you, as a scout, are saying, "I think this girl is better than that girl, at this position", or, "I think that the things this power forward can do as a shot-blocker and rebounder right now makes me rank her above this point guard who can score thirty whenever she wants, but can't run a team efficiently yet."
Any college that's about serious recruiting will purchase several REGIONAL scouting services--usually to cover the entire geographic region of their conference--along with purchasing one or two of the national scouting services. The idea is: to get as many names, addresses, phone numbers, e-mail addresses, and the like for the data base; to cross-reference several different "opinions" of the same player; and to find out about NEW PLAYERS on a regular basis.
Some of the national scouting services will rank up to as many as 1,500 girls per high school class.
On the other hand, a sharp regional scouting service will see nationally-known players from its region MANY MORE TIMES THAN ANY NATIONAL SCOUTING SERVICE WOULD, thus, theoretically, will have a more well-rounded and accurate assessment of those players. As well, the sharp regional service will be able to "discover" more players than would the national services (the nationals depend more on the regionals than one would think...).
Most importantly, a real scouting service not only provides a list of ranked names, BUT ALSO provides relevent comments on each player ranked...

[intelligenthoodlum]

The IH knows of a girl in the 2009 class, who is being heavily recruited by two-thirds of the ACC, SEC, and Big East schools RIGHT NOW as if she was a national top-thirty 2009-class player, with at least 15 or so scholarship offers ALREADY.
But, no national scouting service has her ranked in the top 125 in the national 2009 class, if they have her ranked AT ALL! How can this be?!
Well, sports fans, when the NATIONAL scouts saw her during the spring evaluation period, WHAT THEY SAW AT THAT TIME was a top-125/top-175 player.
Now, in the month of July, this same girl dominated EVERY match-up she had against EVERYONE at her position who was ranked in anyone's top-100--regardless of class--INCLUDING everyone she went up against in the consensus top-forty in her class!
But none of the NATIONAL scouting services saw any of her July action. But a few of the REGIONAL scouting services did, including the RBR, at a few stops on her summer circuit...
What do you sports fans think of this particular situation, and others like it?


To be continued, to be sure...

[quedash]

I think it's time for you to bring back your ongoing saga of the player who was going thru the recruiting process "165(?) Days to the Only Thing that Matters.":)

[pgmom]

I know of the flip situation where players are known by naitonals and getting lots of college coaching interest but regional scouts clueless. face it it happens all different ways; some girls will get recrutied playing high school ball becuase the college happens to see them play hs ball -- and rankgins and auu and club ball wont have nothing to do with thier recruitment. this definitely happens

[lboogie]

I know of the flip situation where players are known by naitonals and getting lots of college coaching interest but regional scouts clueless. face it it happens all different ways; some girls will get recrutied playing high school ball becuase the college happens to see them play hs ball -- and rankgins and auu and club ball wont have nothing to do with thier recruitment. this definitely happens

Interesting...I find that hard to believe in the D-M-V or the majority of the east coast cities. Maybe if they play in Grand Forks or Cheyenne where AAU and elite exposure is limited.

Do you have an example of this happening, you don't have to name the player or college that they signed with just the high school conference and the college conference.

[da silent 1]

the ih has points to ponder. true all services are exactly that a service, a tool, a source. it is 'ludacrust' to expect perfection in a less than perfect world, ( recruiting in womens basketball ). regional scouts offer expert as a source to be combined, with local sources i.e. coaches, that supplement the national services. it is all a comparison, there is no system where any one individual can possibly see every player and every player cannot possibly go up against all of the 'elite' players at her position one class above or one class below. where you there? if susie is the best or in the top five, who are the players above and below her. did susie play against the concensus elite player at here position? opinion, opinion, opinion. i think a lot of the distrust is often personal and or misplaced. the fact that there is disagreement is cause for interest and attention to players. again give credit to these college coaches, they are not as naive and uninformed as we are assuming. and if the are they won't be around long. at the end of the day if you don't agree, you are entitled to start your own service and you can do it the right way and you can market it to the right source. it really is that simple. as with any business the customer should be aware!!!!